Posts by moggy lover

45

Resurrection or re-creation?

by teel in

this thing (along with jehovah's capability to know everything before, wich leads to predetermination) bothered me the most while i was a practicant jw, and the topic of jws mourning brought it back to me.

maybe someone could shed a light on how jws cope with this problem.

i've seen this mentioned at other places too, so it's not just me who thought of this problem.. as we all know, jw doctrine tells that absolutely nothing survives the death.

moggy lover

It is true that the Watchtower leadership and its followers have not really thought this thing through to its logical conclusion, but instead plod along on a whole series of assumptions.

1 The Watchtower teaches that death results in annihilation, that is, being reduced to nothing. A dead person is as much nothing as he/she was before he/she was born

2 God cannot resurrect nothing. Why? Because there is nothing to resurrect in the first place. This is not to say that He cannot create them, or even recreate them from nothing. But resurrect? Nope. If God could resurrect out of nothing then He could square a circle, or create a stone so heavy that He couldn't lift it.

Can God resurrect Luke Skywalker, or the Lone Ranger? Nope. Why? Because neither actually exist. They are nothing. Can He create them if he wished? Yes. But that is not resurrection.

3 So what the Watchtower teaches, and what the rank and file believe, is recreation which by some curious alchemy that defies logic, they regard as resurrection. As you mentioned above, a recreation is a copy of the original, but not the original. My advice to all Watchtower followers is to enjoy this life, because this is all you get. Once you die, only a non-biological, empty series of memories of you remain, to be implanted into a copy of you that has no conscious link to you, except by implication.

4 In order for the person to be resurrected, there has to be a clear biological and organic link to to the original. You can call this enduring link a "soul" a "spirit" an "id" "ego" whatever, but that link must survive physical death to make resurrection meaningful.

5 The most demonic aspect of this recreation teaching is what they have done to Jesus. According to the Watchtower, when Jesus died for "parts of three days" he too, was reduced to nothingness. Thus, "parts of three days" later, since there was nothing of Jesus to resurrect, the god of the Watchtower, recreated a copy of Jesus, call this copy Jesus mark2, and simply poured the inanimate remaining memories of the original Jesus into the copy. So the jerk who is prancing about in the heavenly realms at the moment, enjoying the benefits of immortal life, did nothing to earn his immortality. The Original, who did earn this has vanished into nothing.

Sad.

34

Do You Need to Learn Hebrew and Greek? (WT 11/01/09)

by Midget-Sasquatch in

i'm sure quite a few of you on the board remember the km that discouraged learning the biblical languages.

well, here are scans of this newer article from the nov public wt.

very boring read with little direct prohibitions (understandable since its for outsiders), but still a bit of an eye roller with their reasons for not bothering to learn them.

moggy lover

No, I believe one does not need to undertake such a study if one is moved, by some motivational impulse, to accept the Bible as a book of Christian values and perceptions. Perfectly acceptable translations are available reflecting differing viewpoints, from extreme conservative to extremely liberal. I believe we must have the right to investigate the competence and the value judgments that these translators brought to their work. A so-called "translator" of the Bible who comes to my door but who refuses to devulge either his identity or proof of competence, better be quick to change his mind before I get off my couch and throw the bum out.

Having said that, however, if someone is moved by some motivational impulse to do such a study, I believe we ought to encourage such an individual. There will never be enough men and women competent in these ancient languages. Their creativity and collective wisdom will always be welcome in the rich world of Christian debate and discussion.

If I may be indulged a personal recollection.

I Recall telling my CO in confidence that I had this indefinable urge to study NT Greek. [Hebrew was an unfathomable mystery to me] It was something I could neither explain nor expand on, although I rather suspected that I did have reason enough. I did not tell him that I was becoming suspicious of the writing style of the NW "T" and that I was beginning to suspect that this "translation" was in fact merely a transcription into Watchtowerese, the patois spoken at Bethel HQ, from another English Version.

Rather than being encouraging, he was alarmed and tried various persuasions to deter me. He used incentives such as an implied promise of higher responsibilities, to dire warnings of official retribution, none of which worked. This was back in 1980, when I was younger and had a lot more spunk than I have now. I did do such a study in our local Bible college at night school over two years, without of course telling him. I never regretted it. Ever.

It was enough however, to convince me that the "translators" of NW "T" had produced their version simply for the purpose of transforming the Bible from an independent voice into a pliant whore, using it to make it say whatever they wanted it to say.

Oddly enough, I know less about the NT and the richness of its revelation than when I first started this study almost a generation ago.

Hmmmm..Lessee...where does the predicate go at 2Tim 3:16? Isit "All Scripture is inspired", or isit "All inspired scripture is.." Ahhh well... Mabel? watsferlunch?

40

"One of" Jehovah's Witnesses

by NeonMadman in

any thoughts on that particular phrasing?

personally, i think the wts uses it as another form of mind control.

by calling the individual "one of jehovah's witnesses," it lends a generic feel to the wording.

moggy lover

I have it on the best authority [namely me uncle Solly] that in the heyday of J Edgar Hoover, one time head of the FBI, that his agents when coming to a person's door would identify themselves with the words.......

wait for it ......wait for it.....

"I am one of J Hoover's witnesses!!"

Its a joke Maggie...a joke...now be luv and getus a cuppa.

21

How much does an individual copy of WT or Awake! cost?

by Open mind in

i'm not talking about the incalculable cost of wasted lives, etc.. i'm mainly thinking about actual out-of-pocket accounting cost to the wtb&ts.

raw materials, labor (yes labor, it's not quite free even though some seem to think so), utilities, shipping, etc.. my gut says about $.30 us.

but i have crunched no numbers nor done any research.. anyone else?.

moggy lover

Is the public version now in black-and white?

Wow. What a comedown.

When did this start?

21

How much does an individual copy of WT or Awake! cost?

by Open mind in

i'm not talking about the incalculable cost of wasted lives, etc.. i'm mainly thinking about actual out-of-pocket accounting cost to the wtb&ts.

raw materials, labor (yes labor, it's not quite free even though some seem to think so), utilities, shipping, etc.. my gut says about $.30 us.

but i have crunched no numbers nor done any research.. anyone else?.

moggy lover

I believe Randy Watters from the Freeminds site did an assessment once. He had the benefit of having worked in the printing department of the Watchtower in a supervisory capacity.

His reckoning was that it cost the Watchtower 11 cents to actually manufacture an individual magazine, at a time when a cost of 50 cents on each was being placed onto the consumer.

What's that? A 220% profit?

Nice little earner.

12

THE NEW COVENANT ADVOCATE - is there a request?

by RR in

okay, before i make them available, who is interested in the complete set of e.c.

henninges journal, the new covenant advocate?.

henninges started the largest schism in the bible students next to the 1917 schism, when in 1909 he challenged russell on his views of the new covenant.

moggy lover

Go to it pal.

Cheers

Mogs

7

% of witnesses actually making disciples?.........

by oompa in

jw
friends

i dont think my wife even wants a return visit!.......i do not think she has placed any literature in over a year from the stack of old mags i see, and her bookbag looks the exact same every time i see it........ i wonder how many witnesses actually try to make a disciple?

?.......,esp by good ol bible study......i swear i think nearly anyone who accidentally finds "interest" does their damnedest to find some pioneer who gives a flip....and even they are hard to find.................oompa.

i can almost hear it now..."you are interested?

moggy lover

For the thirty odd years that I was a Watchtower Follower [1957-1984] I placed countless thousands of mags.

[Let's see: at about 10 a month for 30 years it would make...what? 3,200?] And had a grand total of eight "Bible" studies. Of these only three, making up a total of 10 family members made it to baptism.

Within eleven years all had, for separate reasons, left the Watchtower system.

This means that by the time I myself dissassociated from the system my grand total of recruits to the Watchtower was:

0.

Talk about an excercise in futility. Cop that.

Cheers

Mogs.

9

Are the GB/FDS and the "Domestics" still the same people?

by Doug Mason in

the grammar of matthew 24:45 46 (nwt) reads as follows:.

(a) who really is the faithful and discreet slave.

(b) whom his master appointed over his domestics,.

moggy lover

OOPS.

Some spelling errors. "Partical" in the last sentence of paragraph 4 should read: "practical" and "toaday" in the last sentence of paragarph 6 is of course, "today"

My ie-spell has been disabled.

Sorrrry...

9

Are the GB/FDS and the "Domestics" still the same people?

by Doug Mason in

the grammar of matthew 24:45 46 (nwt) reads as follows:.

(a) who really is the faithful and discreet slave.

(b) whom his master appointed over his domestics,.

moggy lover

The Watchtower teaching on this subject gets a bit fuzzy if one asks too many questions about the theological ramifications of this teaching.

Yes. The "FDS" and the "domestics" are the same group, but viewed differently. The Rev Climax! book says on page 201 the following: "The slave, as a body, is responsible for supplying the food, but the domestics, the individual members of that body are sustained by partaking of the spiritual provisions . They are the same group but described in different terms - collectively, and individually"

This may be all very well, but the pratical application of this piece of wisdom has a glaring difficiency. For instance:This means that Ted Jaracz as part of a group of some 8,500 people is the FDS, but as an individual, when he reads the material he has contributed to, becomes a "domestic". Thus: When he writes a Watchtower article, he is part of the Slave, but when he studies what he has written, he is a "domestic".

I mean and all. Come on. You mean, he doesn't know what he has written, but has to study it as well? Then, these men "study" the material they have contributed to collectively, never individually. They meet, supposedly, at regular Watchtower studies, and along with the rest of the gathered "anointed" they study this material. So there is no partical difference between the individuals and the group.

Hi, Ted, are you really a member of the FDS?

Ted: What's today? Wednesday? Nope. Today I am studying what I wrote on Monday. So toaday I'm a domestic.

See? Logical as quicksand.

The other "non anointed" sheep are the other sheep whether considered as a group or as individuals. So what is sauce for gander is not sauce for the goose. By the way, they are the part of Matt 24:47 where it says "all His belongings" so: The FDS= the anointed as a group, the domestics= the anointed as individuals, who evidently teach themselves individually, and the "belongings"= the other sheep.

The other parts of your question also become murky in the telling. As far as we can tell it was Mrs R who first broached the subject of the FDS=CTR. There is no record of CTR actually admitting that he was the FDS publically, but we do have anecdotal evidence from his associates who confirmed that he declared this several times privately.

It was Rutherford, who when he felt sufficiently strong to break free from the straitjacket of Russellite theology, invented the FDS "class" doctrine. In fact this was one of his favourite buzz words. He made up the "Mordecai" class, the "Esther" class, the "Naomi" class, the "Ruth" class, and his particular favourite: the "clergy" class. Oh, there were others that were part of his creative writing expertise, but none of them are now in regular use.

The GB was established in 1971, which would have been when they were identified as the FDS. Knorr made the proviso that to be a member of the GB, one had to be of the FDS.

Whatever you do, don't mention the years 1919 or 1943 to a dyed-in-the-wool Watchtower follower. Throughout his years at the helm of the Watchtower Empire, JFR did not have the creative ability to unfold a concrete theology that explained Christ's "invisible" presence as occurring in 1914. He did make allusions to this date in some obscure passages of his literature, but whether these were ghostwritten for him by others is uncertain. Certainly he died believing that Jesus actually did come in 1874.

It was his evil genius of a disciple, Freddy Franz, who, in 1943 first outlined a detailed theology that explained 1914 as the date for Christ's "invisible" presence. When this detailed theology was unfurled, no attribution to the former date of 1874 was made, and those newly converted who had no inkling of CTR's 1874 date swallowed it whole. Which suited friend Freddy very nicely indeed.

5

Lexicon and concordance

by PSacramento in

i used the lexicon and concordance over at blueletterbible.org, a very awesome site and one i higly recommend for all, but i would like to buy one for home, any suggestions?.

.

moggy lover

Unfortunately there is no one single book that will answer all your requirements, and you will need to assess your own personal needs before investing in either a good lexicon or concordance. There is no one book which acts both as a concordance and lexicon for a serious investigation into the Bible text.

For instance, Zondervan books publish a comprehensive concordance of 1650 pages which lists every single occurence of every word in the Bible text of the NIV Bible. It is called the "Strongest NIV Exhaustive Concordance" They do this for the KJV Bible translation as well. At the back of each book a lexicon is featured which also lists all the original langauge words that undergird the English translation.

Holman books do the same for the NASV Bible.

You can get various editions of the "Strong's" concordance which have various sub features that highlight certain aspects of the text of the Bible in English as well as the original languages. You will need to investigate each of these to be satisfied on your needs.

If you are a Roman Catholic, the Liturgical Press have published the "Nelson's Complete Concordance of the New American Bible" which opens up the Catholic NAB Bible to readers. Tyndale Publishers have done the same for the New Living Translation.

There are other kinds of concordances that are more comprehensive which are called "Analytical" and which are formatted slightly differently. For instance, "The Analytical Concordance to the Revised Standard Version of the NT" is formatted not according to the English but the original Greek. Through this formatting you can look behind the original word that is used for the RSV NT, and you can see how many different ways it is translated into English.

Young's Analytical Concordance does the same for the the whole Bible. In a sense, these ought to be favoured over the comprehensive concordances because the variety of translation is more easily accessible. For instance, if you want to do a word study on the word "Hope" in the Bible, looking up a Comprehensive Concordance transcribing any particular version, you will get every occurence of the word in the Scripture text, but: 1 You will not be able to distinguish between the verb and the noun 2 Whether there are various original language words behind this word.

An Analytical concordance solves this problem by listing the occurences according to the origianl languages. For instance for "hope" an analytical concordance can tell you that is derived from 9 separate Hebrew words such as "betach" "bittachon" "kesel" "mibtach" etc.

It will also show you how the verbs are translated as well. The drawback is that naturally the occurences are not listed chronologically, but analytically. So with an analytical concordance you will be able to tell how many times "hope" is translated from the original Heb word "Bittachon" or "mibtach" but not how many times it occurs chronologically. [Unless of course you are game enough to count the various analytical occurences to get an overall number.]

Oddly enough, in 1973 The Watchtower Society published a very good "Comprehensive Concordance" to the NWT but I fear that it is no longer in print, since the original print run was for only 200,000 copies.

There are various editions of Hebrew and Greek lexicons available in the market today. For their price which is moderate, considering their invaluable content, Thayer's Greek Lexicon, and Gesenius' Hebrew Lexicon are the best available. A more comprehensive Heb lexicon is that of "Brown Driver and Briggs". Probabaly the best and most comprehensive available for the NT is that of "Bauer Danker Arnt and Gringrich" [BDAG]which has the added advantage of helping the student to see the evolution of meaning in these Greeks words from their earliest usages in pre-Christian times. Unfortunately it is not cheap, and like me, you may need to forego several meals before purchasing one of these.

Apart from Lexicons, there are "Exegetical Dictionaries" which detail, within any given context, the application of any given word. The three volume "Exegetical Dictionary to the greek NT" by Baltz and Schneider is recommended. Less comprehensive though worth its price is "Renn's Expository Dictionary of Bible Words", as is the "Word Study Dictionary of the NT edited by Spiros Zodhiates.

So, as you can see, there is a veritable smorgasborg of literature available to the serious, and not so serious student of the biblical text. A visit to your nearest Christian book store will help you to decide your needs.

Hope this helps.

Cheers